On my previous post I talked about the habit of writing … about falling out and falling back in. The post prompted a lot of discussion (thank you) … well more than normal on this blog anyways! In the course of that discussion one question posed by blogging friend Ally stuck in my mind today; she wrote
words first?
or image?
Does it matter?
My initial response to the question was ‘Image first’ and although it’s true that I generally choose an image and then let the words flow from there … my answer didn’t really satisfy me. Who is to say that the words weren’t simmering away waiting for an image? I rarely think of the words or an idea and then go find and take a picture to illustrate it … I know plenty of photographers who do but I’m not one. I do have some projects I’m working on that require this approach and I’ve discussed some of those previously.
Composing a picture is a searching, almost meditative process for me. Often I don’t know exactly where I’m going with it until I arrive. I’m trying to think whether the words are there then at that moment of artistic creation? No, they’re not. Not in the form as you’re reading now. But then, the vision behind my thoughts … behind my presented image was. When I present the two together, they appear simultaneously to you. There’s no telling which came first … you get to choose!
When I took this picture (in December 2011) was I thinking of the words I’d write here today? No I wasn’t. I was thinking of the interconnectedness of things … about how the structure of the leaf and the arrangement of its veins was likely an efficient method of town-planning … about how the natural and constructed worlds shared much and that our contructed world had more to learn than perhaps the other way round.
Oh and I was holding my breath because I didn’t want to cause the leaf to move.
Does it matter?
Does the fact that I wasn’t, in this case, thinking of the words and the picture simultaneously matter? I don’t think so. Did one influence the other? Most definitely.
Which way does it work for you? Which comes first?
Details of these leaves are like the lines of a hand, they each have their identity. I love this capture in transparency
Mind-boggling to think that each one is individually formed and always has been…
Always the photos with my photomania blog but with 1500 Saturdays I often know where I am going on any given Saturday so will take photos to illustrate where I’ve been.. but sometimes I take a photograph and it sets a thought process off and I will write about what I was thinking and use the photo or photos..
Thanks Helen, images often kick off the thought processes for me too … or at least attempt to reorganise them into something tangible!
I LOVE this, Geoff (and am thinking how good it would be for another guest post at V&V, seriously!). This question is one I often think of when I’m posting for V&V because there is one image followed by a text. For me the image is what usually comes first…and the text emerges from and around it, based on what it elicits in me. However, it so happens I am writing a post next week for which I had to find an image. It took me over an hour yesterday to find the appropriate image from my archives. That hasn’t happened in a LONG time.
Great way to open up a discuaaion here. I love it. 🙂
Let’s get the initial guest post out there first Ginnie! Sometimes I look through my archives with the kernel of an idea in mind but until it ‘clicks’ that’s all I find I’m doing … just looking 🙂
You know I started writing earlier than taking pictures but still wouldn’t say that the words came or still come first. I’ve always been a very ‘visual’ person, discovering the world with my eyes and collecting pictures in my mind, so words were mainly to describe the things going on in my head and around me.
Now, when I take actual pictures with a camera, there are sometimes ideas driving this but most of the time it’s merely coincidence and the words join the party later. And even if I just post a quote from a book rather than my own words, it’s still the picture that decides what I choose.
I guess what I’m trying to find out is if the image triggers a flow of words … those words must have been in there in some form waiting perhaps for that trigger. In that sense do the words and the pictures coexist in some space in your mind with one perhaps awaiting the manifestation of the other? Is it too early for such a whacky conversation? 😉
Well, I usually read your comments in the middle of the night when I wake up and can’t leave my fingers off the phone so yes, a bit early sometimes 🙂
I think this is easy to answer…at least for me, the pictures are triggering words. Even though I might have something to say before I take the picture the words often change while I’m actually writing them down. Personally, I don’t really write poetry or real stories but especially for the first I would say a picture can be a very good trigger in the process of creating a poem or haiku, it seems a natural fit somehow. The question of coexisting I would answer with ‘Yes’!
I think the coexistence of the ideas is a key here for me … that they are both a part of the same desire; to create and express.
I’d have to say that the image generally comes first for me and then the words follow. When I take photos I’m looking for something that I have a connection with, something that draws me to it. If I try searching for an image to go with words it doesn’t feel as fluid and intuitive. Saying that sometimes words come to me late at night and I know exactly which image I’ve already taken that will go with it . . . . and sometimes it feels as though the image needs no words at all.
Good answer. I know that ‘searching for the right image’ feeling as well as the ‘searching for the right words’ feeling and you’re right … sometimes the images need no words.
I think we need a white board and then I could draw a flow chart of how it works for me – haha – I find that I have an overarching idea simmering (top oval shaped shape on the board, possibly with wavering edges to induce the notion of simmering 😉 ) and from this overarching idea comes the two sub-categories of photo and word/poem (second level underneath – two oval shaped shapes as sub-categories). The overarching idea has usually been simmering (for me) for about 5-10 years (yeah, I’m slow like that) and after a while (5-10 years) the desire to photograph that concept or write the poem that might scrape a slight fragment of the idea off the general slab of cheese occurs. Overall my subconscious has more to do with it then me, so you can go ask her 🙂 Hope that is clear Geoffrey.
You know, I’m sure there’s a way we can represent your whole diagram as wheels of fine cheese … something to sip a glass of fine red with 🙂
I believe that you’ve open Pandora’s box of treasures: the confluence of mind, brain and creative process. Maybe it really does not matter, it’s for the creator to decide on the methodology. For me the image is first. When I created my blog, the Lens section did not necessarily prompt the commentary in the Pens section. As the posts grew, the narrative has been about the confluence of the site of the photograph. Since much of my photography is intuitive, I find it hard to articulate about it. Still, I do plan on the photographic shoot, and mostly have an idea of the subject. Maybe it’s time to be more forthcoming about what I see, even though I hope that the image does speak for itself. It’s a complex topic. As always I enjoy your photograph–many thanks, Sally
Thank you Sally, it is a complex topic … well one that I find complex anyways! I don’t believe there is a single answer just as there’s no real way to understand or predict the nature of artistic intuition but I do find its exploration fascinating 🙂
Drat! For some reason, my comment got ate by the system last night. When it did not show up at first, I decided to wait, for sometimes there is a lag, but no, it disappeared. Ah well.
Good question!
After some long pondering, I decided that for me, it was neither the pictures or the words. Understand, I do illustrated essays/stories, so the question very much applies. As far as I can tell, there is an imageless, wordless concept which is imbued with strong emotion. That comes first.
The images or words are outward manifestations, and it does not matter which I do first.
There is a similar phenomenon at work with writing songs.
On another note, when I was looking at the picture of the leaf, it reminded me of looking at a sort of organic suburban neighborhood from the air. Notice the little yards? See the little streets merging into bigger streets until they get to the highway?
Cheers,
Rick
Rick, neither the picture or the words … indeed. I reckon that if the image triggers words then words must have existed in some form prior to the trigger … this concept of yours … this amorphous collection of thoughts and ideas is waiting for the correct triggers to release what’s contained. I like it. Of course it sounds like meditative theory but I like it anyways 😉
I did see the little streets and gardens lending their way to the highway.
For me, image first. However, in the edit process, words help me refine the image. Words aid in focus and then ultimately in the hindsight into my understanding of why I was drawn to or drew the image in the first place. Does that make sense?
Enjoying the discussions and images on your blog very much. Glad to have words to express this thought;)
Excellent way of putting it Elena 😉
Thanks Helen, Elena certainly has a way with words … and art! 🙂
It makes perfect sense. In your case you’re creating directly without the use of a recording device .. I think it’s an important thing too. It removes the interface if you like … that initial separation between the creative process and its manifestation. I imagine sometimes what it would be like to record imagery as I see it in a raw form that could be and experienced or seen by another.
great peek behind your creative process! Our poetry group is responding to art in an Ekphrastic show this fall, all of our poems are in response to an art piece…many are twisting it up a bit and creating the poem and then responding to it visually…can’t wait to see everyone’s interpretation. 🙂
Thanks Roxie … please keep me in the loop for that one … I’m interested to see what they come up with 🙂
Love how Elena put it
( and how the discussion is unfolding and evolving)
Thank you for the original question! It has provided much food for thought 🙂
Today I nominated you for the “One Lovely Blogger” award. You can check at my post for more information. Congratulations, Sally
Thank you Sally! I’ll come over and check it out 🙂
For me, images usually come first if there’s going to be an image in a post. But sometimes I get an idea and hunt for an image (always my own, either art or photo) that will fit its sentiment in some way and then the words flow from the idea.
Thank you Val and welcome. Images first seems to be the way but I wonder what things would be like if we could create our images directly without the need for a mechanism in between … spontaneous … like the words.
Great shot, photos and words…what ever comes first.
Thanks Mats … whatever come first!
Another interesting post. But unlike you I think it matters which comes first, word or image, for the final result. They clearly influence each other. But if you were assigned to do a photograph of the interconnectedness of things, don’t you think you may have found or made another picture? Maybe? I don’t think that one is better to have first than the other – in terms of a good creative process – just that the order may influence the final outcome. I know when I am photographing I am much better when words are not there beforehand to make my photographic agenda. But when I for instance write a post on my blog, most of the time the words come first and I search for a picture that will interact in some way with what I write about, or give a second entrance to the thought process.
By the way, I forgot to say that I really like the picture. It’s great with the soft focus towards the edges of the picture.
Cheers and thanks for coming back to let me know 🙂
Thanks Otto. I think it matters when setting out to compose a particular image or acting upon commission … there are certain things we are often asked to capture … a journalistic image, a wedding or picture of the children for Grandma. I was referring more to the creative process of the mingling and integration of words and pictures in my post. It’s not a question of which one is better more an attempt to tease out my own creative process … by asking others about theirs! 😉
I didn’t take it as a question about one being better than the other, but just wanted to make sure my argument wasn’t take in favour of that. Of course you are right in that there is a difference between doing an assignment and working creatively with your own projects. But both of them involves creativity, and understanding the process whether it’s one or the other, is a tremendously helpful tool.
Nothing like teasing oneself and asking others. It’s a fun discussion, though. 🙂
It is fun. I wonder about a possible creative world where images could be shared without the use of a machine to capture it before sharing … I know that in the early history of photography, many painters expressed the view that photography was not an ‘art’ because it relied on a mechanism or machinery to create the vision. Not that this relates directly to your comments but I thought it interesting anyways! 😉
most of the time, i blog recent photos. so no matter what is the image, they will go with what ever thought process i was recently busy with.
although sometimes i would create a post the way you did here, looking for a picture that would fit what ever i am writing about. does it matter which come first, to me no, it doesn’t. i also don’t think it necessarily needs to connect, photos and words. in my case it seldom does i think. it rather goes like this, look, this is what i have seen and read, this is what i have been thinking. and perhaps, we will find a connection in the end of the day.
The path you follow yields some surprising results … which upon reflection might have been present as sub-conscious connections or paths in the first place! 😉
Excellent details on your macro here!
Thanks Birgitta … it rewards extended exploration 🙂
Hi Geoff
I wanted to leave comments on several of your older images but a message told me that the comments were closed on those images.
Hi Marie,
thank you thanks to your message I realised I had my posts set to close automatically after 60 days … I had no idea I was doing that have since modified the time period to a much longer one.
Geoff
The answers to your questions are, for me, as complicated as the cellular structure of your beautiful image. I adore drowning in the silence of an image, images which come to me and demand acknowledgement. Words at the time, with the image, might be a simple record of time, place and event but later words will always be richer with memories of evocation.
Geoff, feeling a little messy here with my explanation!
Messy’s great Patti … neat lines can look fantastic but they seldom make interesting journeys 🙂
I too am an image person… I find words are either restrictive or so slippery you can’t find a good footing… It led me, as a child, to search languages that are still written in pictographs… yet the argument still goes on. I say images first… but then I’m an image person. Word people will always argue for word first. So it goes.
Hi Merrill, thanks for dropping over this way and saying hello. So it goes indeed 🙂 I’m intrigued by the different ways people approach their art and creativity and I pretend to refine my own by asking others about theirs 😉
Well, Geoffrey,I hope you don’t spend so much time worrying about chickens and eggs that it takes time away from your wonderful photography!
Hey Staffo, welcome to Pictures with Words. 🙂 I’ll be the first to admit that I sometimes think so much about what I’m trying to do that I don’t actually start … let alone complete 😉
I might just go out and take some pictures!
Meist treibt mich die Lust zu fotografieren und alleine (ohne Menschen) in der Natur zu sein nach draussen. In solchen Momenten lass ich mich treiben, gehe mit offenen Augen und Entdeckergeist. Weiter möchte ich die Natur nicht nur sehen, sondern auch riechen und hören. Mit Berührungen bin ich etwas vorsichtig geworden, denn ich wurde schon öfters gestochen, gebissen oder gebrannt, weil ich Pflanzen und Tiere möglichst mit allen Sinnen wahrnehmen möchte. Wo meine Gedanken in solchen Streifzügen mit der Kamera sind, weiss ich jeweils nicht mehr wenn ich zu Hause am PC sitze.
Wenn ich an einem Projekt teilnehme ist das Thema meist vorgegeben und dem entsprechend sind Gedanken und Augen auf das jeweilige Motiv und dessen Umsetzung gerichtet.
Sehr präsent ist mir die Aufnahme “In Gedanken” ( http://alltagsblick.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/in-gedanken/ ). Ein lieber Mensch durfte endlich nach langem leiden den Körper auf der Erde zurücklassen und seine Seelenreise antreten. Meine Gedanken waren nicht nur beim fotografieren bei der Person, nein während der gesamten Entstehung – Stein aus Bach holen, entscheiden welchen der Steine ich nehmen möchte, platzieren des Objekts im natürlichen Licht und zum Schluss das Foto. Wie du bemerken wirst, kannst du den Artikel nicht ins Englische übersetzen, den er ist in meiner Muttersprache CH – Deutsch geschrieben.
Ich für mich habe unterschiedliche Ansätze wie ich vorgehe, passend zur Stimmung, Lage oder Projekt.
Gruss
Claudia
Google translate version: Most drives me to photograph the joy and alone (without humans) in nature to be outside. At such moments, I let myself go, go with open eyes and spirit of discovery. Next I would like to see nature not only see but also hear and smell. By touch I’ve grown a little careful, because I was already stung repeatedly, bitten or burnt, plants and animals as possible because I would like to take with all their senses. Where my mind is in such forays with the camera, I know each case is no longer when I’m sitting at home on the PC.
If I participate in a project is usually given the topic and are accordingly directed thoughts and eyes to match the subject and its implementation.
Very present to me the inclusion of “In my mind” (http://alltagsblick.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/in-gedanken/) is. A dear man was finally allowed to leave the body long suffering on earth and take up his soul’s journey. My thoughts were not just shooting at the person, no, during the entire creation – would bring stone from Bach to decide which of the stones I take to place the object in natural light, and finally the photo. As you’ll notice, you can not translate the article into English, he is in my mother tongue CH – German written.
I have different approaches for me as I proceed to match the mood, location or project.
greeting
Claudia
Claudia, I love the photo on the link you posted. It captures both a singularity from and an immersion in the very stuff of life … I’m sad I’m unable to read your text that accompanies it.
Google translate version:
Claudia, ich liebe das Foto auf den Link Sie auf dem Laufenden. Es erfasst sowohl eine Singularität aus und ein Eintauchen in den Stoff, aus dem Leben … Ich bin traurig, ich nicht in der Lage, um Ihren Text zu lesen, die sie begleitet habe.
Geoff, ich habe versucht die Worte für dich in Deutsch zu schrieben:
Tschüss “Stradella”
Die neue Woche war noch jung, als du von uns gegangen bist. Hast den körperlichen Schmerz und Leid auf der Erde zurück gelassen. Die Liebe die du für (meine) Grossmutter empfunden hast, konnte deine Seele hoffentlich in Erinnerungen gespeichert mitnehmen. Über genau diese Liebe denke ich in den letzten Tagen nach. Über die Liebe von dir und Grossmutter. Ihr habt mir an einem gemeinsamen Abend erzählt, wie ihr euch kennen lernten. Es ist eine Freude, aber auch amüsant. Zum Glück hast du vor einem Jahrzenht um die Liebe geworben! Eure Liebe ist in all den Jahren zu einem “grossen starken Baum” gewachsen. So stark, dass du nicht gehen wolltest. Eure Liebe hat euch im Alltag getragen, euch Kraft gegeben und gibt sie – der Grossmutter – immernoch!
Ich wünsche dir von Herzen einen guten Weg und eine lehrreiche Reise!
In Liebe
Claudia
Google translate version: Geoff, I’ve tried the words for you to write in German:
Bye “Stradella”
The new week was still young when you’re gone. Did the physical pain and suffering on earth left behind. The love you felt for (my) grandmother could take your soul saved hopefully memories. It is precisely this love I’m thinking in recent days. About the love of you and grandmother. You have told me at an evening event, as you got to know you. It is a pleasure, but also amusing. Luckily, you have advertised in front of a Jahrzenht of love! Your love is all in the years to a “big strong tree” grew. So strong that you did not want to go. Your love has carried you in everyday life, given you strength and they are – the grandmother – still!
I sincerely wish you a good way and an educational journey!
in love
Claudia
Gosh that’s beautiful and I find the words very moving. Thank you for taking the time to translate it so I may be able to read it with my own eyes. Thank you 🙂
Google translate version: Gosh, dass ist schön und ich finde die Worte sehr bewegend. Vielen Dank, dass Sie sich die Zeit, es zu übersetzen, so dass ich möglicherweise in der Lage, es mit eigenen Augen zu lesen. Danke 🙂
Oh ich habe ganz vergessen: Mir gefällt der Blick auf das grüne Blatt mit seinen hellen Strukturen. 🙂
Google translate version: Oh, I forgot: I like the look on the bright green leaf, with its structures. 🙂
Oh yes the photo … of course! 😉
Google translate version:
Oh ja das Foto … natürlich! 😉
What a wondeful and lightening macro! Great capture!
Have a nice day.
Thanks